500e lease return issue (no dealership would accept my car) - Page 3

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Thread: 500e lease return issue (no dealership would accept my car)

  1. #21
    Senior Member Tedolph's Avatar
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    Is it possible that the carbon tax credits are worth that much?

    Should they just be giving these things away for free in raffles?

    Tedolph

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  3. #22
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    The car business is tough, crazy, and scary. Lots of uncertainty in the petroleum industry. Gas prices insanely low considering everything going on. Consumers are making money selling cars back to VW. It's possible to buy a nearly new EV for 1/3 or less of the original list price.

    Oh well, perfectly happy to pick up a couple of 500e lease returns. They are great EVs really. Couldn't built anything like them for twice the current auction prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
    Let's see. Start with a car that loses you $14,000 ever time you sell one. Then give it lease prices so low that you send loads of them out the door. Make sure that it's barely competitive with other EVs right out of the gate and then never update or improve it. Then when satisfied lessees want to buy them, refuse reasonable offers and sell them for thousands less at auction instead. As a bonus, make sure that your lease rates are still as low or even lower than before so the people that were willing to buy their old one are likely to once again lease a fresh one instead for you to lose money on.

    Yeah, I can't figure it out either...
    They make it up in volume.

    If you lose a dollar on each car and only sell a hundred cars, you lose $100, but if you sell A MILLION CARS... I think you see how the math works.

    LOL.

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DaveN007 For This Useful Post:

    robbobster (02-18-2017),Tangent (02-17-2017),Tedolph (02-20-2017)

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedolph View Post
    Is it possible that the carbon tax credits are worth that much?

    Should they just be giving these things away for free in raffles?

    Tedolph
    If you live in California and have a household of 4 people and an income of $75k or less, you get $4500 from the State, $1000 from your County and $500 from your utility towards a lease that is $5400. Those are checks. So the car is free. They give you $600 and a car to drive for free for three years.

    Someone stole your idea.

    The problem is that you can't convince people that this can possibly be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedolph View Post
    Is it possible that the carbon tax credits are worth that much?

    Should they just be giving these things away for free in raffles?

    Tedolph
    It's not that the carbon credits are worth so much themselves, it's that the profit from selling all the rest of their models is. For every 100,000 vehicles sold automakers need 4,500 ZEV credits. For every credit they miss their goal by they're penalized $5,000. I can't find FCA's California only sales numbers but overall in the US in 2016 they sold 2,244,315 vehicles and California is usually a huge market...

    As horrible as the numbers look for the 500e it's gotta still make sense for FCA overall to keep working so hard to blow them out. Which actually might also account for them not working with lessees who want to buy their car. They get no credits for that but if they get them to lease a new one for the monthly price of a stick of gum and whatever change they have in their pocket they'll get the credits that let them keep selling all their trucks, Chargers, minivans, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
    It's not that the carbon credits are worth so much themselves, it's that the profit from selling all the rest of their models is. For every 100,000 vehicles sold automakers need 4,500 ZEV credits. For every credit they miss their goal by they're penalized $5,000. I can't find FCA's California only sales numbers but overall in the US in 2016 they sold 2,244,315 vehicles and California is usually a huge market...

    As horrible as the numbers look for the 500e it's gotta still make sense for FCA overall to keep working so hard to blow them out. Which actually might also account for them not working with lessees who want to buy their car. They get no credits for that but if they get them to lease a new one for the monthly price of a stick of gum and whatever change they have in their pocket they'll get the credits that let them keep selling all their trucks, Chargers, minivans, etc.

    That's exactly right.
    Also, automakers get partial credits for hybrids, and bonus credits for hydrogen.
    FCA has none of these, so they MUST move a boatload of 500e's, even at a loss.
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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveN007 View Post
    If you live in California and have a household of 4 people and an income of $75k or less, you get $4500 from the State, $1000 from your County and $500 from your utility towards a lease that is $5400. Those are checks. So the car is free. They give you $600 and a car to drive for free for three years.

    Someone stole your idea.


    The problem is that you can't convince people that this can possibly be true.
    What a country!

    Tedolph

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent View Post
    It's not that the carbon credits are worth so much themselves, it's that the profit from selling all the rest of their models is. For every 100,000 vehicles sold automakers need 4,500 ZEV credits. For every credit they miss their goal by they're penalized $5,000. I can't find FCA's California only sales numbers but overall in the US in 2016 they sold 2,244,315 vehicles and California is usually a huge market...

    As horrible as the numbers look for the 500e it's gotta still make sense for FCA overall to keep working so hard to blow them out. Which actually might also account for them not working with lessees who want to buy their car. They get no credits for that but if they get them to lease a new one for the monthly price of a stick of gum and whatever change they have in their pocket they'll get the credits that let them keep selling all their trucks, Chargers, minivans, etc.


    I actually spoke with someone within FCA today and they stated August 2017 is the end of production for the 500e. So I think FCA is sucking it up and buying ZEV credits or simply paying the fines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charrigan View Post
    I actually spoke with someone within FCA today and they stated August 2017 is the end of production for the 500e. So I think FCA is sucking it up and buying ZEV credits or simply paying the fines.
    Nope, they now have the Pacifica Plug in Hybrid so they still have credit.

  14. #30
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    I don't know what FCA's future product plans are, but there's no realistic way they can move enough Pacifica Hybrids (which only get partial EV credits), to compensate for the loss of full-credit 500e's.
    If this is indeed the case, then we can expect to see $99/month lease deals for the Pacifica Hybrid, which likely costs considerably more for FCA to make than the 500e.

    Also, consider than the EV mandates are tightening for 2018, making it harder for MFR's to simply use partial credits or purchased credits to meet the mandate.

    More info here, plus some copy/pasted parts for the article below:
    http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...rder-to-ignore

    ZEV mandates get harder to ignore


    With 10 states under Calif. mandate, market can't be ignored



    Automakers were never enthusiastic about California's stricter air-quality rules, especially the electric-vehicle sales mandates that have been copied by nine other states. Soon, they'll have to work even harder to meet them.

    Under California's zero-emission vehicle mandate, a certain percentage of an automaker's sales must be ZEVs. Automakers have been able to use partial credit from sales of hybrids and low-emissions conventional vehicles toward their ZEV quotas. But the regulations are slated to tighten in 2018 in a way that limits the impact of those partial credits and requires more sales of actual ZEVs.

    That means that, if anything, automakers will have to be even more engaged in California's complex system of credits and sales-based quotas.
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