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Chevy Volt & BMW i3

7K views 82 replies 11 participants last post by  ga2500ev 
#1 ·
Hey I would like to ask what do you think about the Chevy volt and the BMW I3?
i3 is my favorite gas car, when you get it with the "REx" range extender. Favorite because it goes much further without using gas, than any other gas car (such as a Volt).

Volt 1st-generation gas car might be the winner for "longest lasting HV battery", if the reports are true that it always stays between 30% & 70% (our Fiats charge to about 85%, & even that seems to give incredible longevity).

They both require oil changes though, & other engine maintenance, even if you never, ever burn any gas in them, although I suppose if that was the case, you could remove or at least deactivate the gas engine, but why bother when you could just get a pure EV (like a 500e, or an i3 without the REx) & rent a gas car for road trips (or just drive to the airport).
 
#2 · (Edited)
...But why bother when you could just get a pure EV (like a 500e, or an i3 without the REx) & rent a gas car for road trips (or just drive to the airport).
Because that's not the only gap onboard ICE range extension fills. There are at least two others. First is the gap when the plan is all electric and changes in the plan leaves the EV without enough juice. Eventually there will be enough charging stations to cover this situation. But until then the REx can cover.

The other situation is the one you described above. The problem with renting a gas gas or flying is the deprivation of the electric car for the entire trip. With a REx the actual travel will be a combination of gas and electric. But then it's possible to switch back to 100% electric operation at the destination.

The REx is an imperfect solution. But it's a lot less imperfect than a lot of others. It's one of the reasons why I'd probably pull the trigger on an i3 REx if I can find the right car at the right price.

ga2500ev
 
#4 ·
Because that's not the only gap onboard ICE range extension fills. There are at least two others. First is the gap when the plan is all electric and changes in the plan leaves the EV without enough juice. Eventually there will be enough charging stations to cover this situation. But until then the REx can cover.

The other situation is the one you described above. The problem with renting a gas gas or flying is the deprivation of the electric car for the entire trip. With a REx the actual travel will be a combination of gas and electric. But then it's possible to switch back to 100% electric operation at the destination.

The REx is an imperfect solution. But it's a lot less imperfect than a lot of others. It's one of the reasons why I'd probably pull the trigger on an i3 REx if I can find the right car at the right price.

ga2500ev
[/QUOT I am thinking to buy an I3 but I don’t know that year and with how many miles on it will be best
 
#6 ·
From what I've read, the problem with the i3 range loss isn't due to cooling issues, but with the unintended consequence of running the Rex. The Rex kicks in once the battery gets low or depleted and stays low for an extended period of time. In a normal plug in electric you would recharge once the battery gets low or else you couldn't drive it anymore. But in the i3 Rex you could with the Rex kicking in and thus the battery stays at a low state of charge for longer than it should. We all know that the 2 extreme state of charges are bad for the battery life and that seems to be the case here.
 
#10 ·
Not that I'm aware of. But say if you know that you're not going to drive the car over the weekend then don't charge it to full on Friday and leave it full until Monday. 2-3 days isn't terrible, but it's not great. Same with the other extreme, don't leave the car empty without recharging it. I also charge twice a day because I drive close to 100 miles a day and it's fine.
 
#14 ·
It's quite possible that some or all* i3s have less buffer than Fiat, top &/or bottom. The latter would make it particularly susceptible to the "left uncharged" issue mentioned above.

*could be different on different model years &/or battery sizes. For example, 2nd-gen Volt apparently has smaller buffers than 1st-gen, which is part of what gives the former more electric range.
 
#16 ·
I am thinking to buy an I3 but I don’t know that year and with how many miles on it will be best.
Not enough information to determine an answer to this question. What exactly do you need from out of the car? The 500e doesn't seem to meet your needs. So what are those needs?

How much are you willing to spend? Almost all i3's in the used market are a minimum of double the price of a corresponding 500e.

What charging infrastructure will the car be operating in? Is there DCFC everywhere are is it a charging desert?

As ETS pointed out above, every i3 up to 2016 is going to have less range than the 500e. It does add the advantage of DCFC charging and possible REx options. 2017 and later are running in the low $20k range. At that point buying a new Chevy Bolt with all its current discounts may make more sense.

But without clearly defined needs and a clearly defined operating environment, there's no good answers to your questions. I believe that I've asked you several times what you expected out of the 500e with no response. Without additional information it's going to be tough to help out with suggestions.

ga2500ev
 
#18 ·
Ya, I just checked & even a 125-mile eGolf with DCFC is nearly $20k. That might drop if the id4 comes in Jan, but if not then it's back to a Fiat with a hopefully-soon-available DC kit. Also hopefully, new chargers going in might not get delayed by Covid, if there are Dieselgate deadlines & rebate/subsidy expirations.
 
#19 ·
Electrify America are opening stations here in the Southeast even during the pandemic. They are still spaced too far apart to take EVs in the range of the 500e out on the road. For some reason they seem to be clustering around big cities. For example there are now 4 EA stations open within 50 miles of my house.

But in the end it's going to be tough sledding finding the right combination of range, charging speed, charger placement, and price to create a used EV market where folks can have a reasonably priced EV as their sole vehicle.

I'm fine with a local range car. So I won't fall into the above category. But I do need faster charging for occasional range extension.

ga2500ev
 
#26 ·
But in the end it's going to be tough sledding finding the right combination of range, charging speed, charger placement, and price to create a used EV market where folks can have a reasonably priced EV as their sole vehicle.

My sole vehicle is a 500e:
  • Range: Over double the average daily range in mild weather. Even at -15 Farenheit it's still over one daily drive.
  • Charging Speed: Full average daily mild-weather drive recharged from a standard wall outlet in 8 hours of sleep OR work. 95 minutes on L2, full recharge (for -15F, or over-double-daily drive) in 4 hours.
  • Charger Placement: Home! ;) Obviously public charging varies GREATLY by location, but there are already at least 13 free L2 chargers that I know of, right on my normal 17-mile-each-way trip, where I sometimes plug in while I'm online & it's usually done before I am.
  • Price: $6k used. Recently over a dozen listed locally at that price.
 
#21 ·
Either a timer or something along the lines of the my500e device which tracks the SOC via OBD and controls the activation and deactivation of charging.

None of that data is really secret. It's just undocumented. The 500e is likely easy to figure out as the Bosch developers used different components to put the car together along with CanBus for communication. A diligent documentation effort to capture the relevant data and commands could put together a system to have complete control of charging.

I had held out hope for the Wifi my500e. But now that I see that the plan is to charge online server fee subscriptions to use the device, I'm really not that interested anymore.

ga2500ev
 
#25 ·
Last time I checked, ChargePoint was significantly more expensive. My best friend has an OLD JuiceBox* that's been working great for 99.9% of all her driving since she got a 500e in 2016, & it has more than enough capacity to max out her new Tesla 3's onboard charger.

* Doesn't even have WiFi or anything. Just plug & unplug like the OEM only 5 x as fast.
 
#27 ·
#33 ·

Or

 
#40 ·
I'm glad you can see an example or two. There are lots of people who will not have anyone they can swap cars with. The entire point for many folks is that their sole car serves all of their needs. So while you have the opportunity to swap in these limited situations, and I have multiple vehicles, there will be a lot of folks who will be completely unwilling to compromise on much of anything in terms of the usage of their car.

ga2500ev
 
#42 ·
Agreed, & in fact if something barely met the needs of the average person, it therefore would NOT meet the needs of around HALF the population. Still it WOULD meet the needs of many. 🖖;)

As for 500e REx, unless you could make it directly power the motor, it would still only add 6.6kW. That means with it running you'd only be able to drive about 200 miles at 50mph before your speed would be limited even further to about 45mph. :(
 
#43 ·
REx isn't the long term solution. It operates OK in the short term. The long term solution is a bit more range (minimum 150), fast charging, and enough charging stations between any two points someone might be interested in going.

As for a REx for the 500e, bypass the onboard charger and feed power directly into the HV battery system. Then there's less limits on the amount of power than could be delivered.

ga2500ev
 
#68 ·
How much did you pay for it , how you like it?
$699 from Amazon using Amazon gift cards that I got a 10% discount on. So about $630. I really like the ChargePoint Home Flex. My utility company rebate was only available for a ChargePoint branded EVSE as they are monitoring usage patterns for future policies regarding EV charging.
 
#46 ·
The average driver drives 29 miles per day: National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Even in the middle of the winter the 500e is capable of that. Obviously there are going to be different cases because there are many different situations, but I think there are far more drivers put off by the size and design of the 500e than the range based on actual need.

Only 3.3 million americans, or around 1% do the "stretch commute" described above: National Household Travel Survey "Stretch Commute" Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics
 
#50 ·
Even in the middle of the winter the 500e is capable of that. Obviously there are going to be different cases because there are many different situations, but I think there are far more drivers put off by the size and design of the 500e than the range based on actual need.
People are put off by the lack of range and slow charging speed. Put a used Chevy Bolt at exactly the same price point, and no one would keep them in stock even though the two are approximately the same size.

ga2500ev
 
#49 ·
We as EV people really need to get off of this "average" kick. Would anyone buy a stove that works 90% of the time, but doesn't work at Thanksgiving? Or an HVAC system that works fine in the Spring, but fails to operate when it's 98 degrees out?

Regular people expect their cars to operate properly in virtually every situation. Many EV folks have fallen into the fallacy of thinking that since longer trips are not routine or average, that they are not common. While longer trips are not done often, virtually everyone takes them from time to time. I send fire to both sides of that argument. To folks who believe that sub-100 mile EVs with no fast charging is sufficient, see my arguments above. For those who believe that EVs will work only when they get 500 miles of range and can fully recharge in 5 minutes, it's pure overkill.

My bar is a 500 mile trip in a day. I've taken a couple of hundred such trips in my life. It's not unreasonable to expect a car to be able to take such a trip. We need enough range, and enough charging infrastructure to support an EV making such a trip. It's OK if an hour, or even two, charging has to be done to make the trip. With 200+ mile EVs, and growing fast charging networks, such trips are a reality in much of the US now. Once those vehicles get into the used market at reasonable prices, like 500e, LEAF, SoulEV, i3, and others are now, then we'll start to see an expansion of the EV market.

ga2500ev
 
#53 · (Edited)
It really feels like we are just talking past one another. See post #16 of this thread, which you never addressed. First off you are on a forum for FIAT 500e. So it's pretty clear what folks here would buy.

Also I keep asking what you need. Sometimes you give specs "40 amps and WiFi for an EVSE". But I do not believe I've ever read anything that you've written that indicates what you need out of an electrified car.

The only reason to discuss the i3, Volt, or E-golf along with the 500e is because of price. 3 year electrified cars along those lines are $20k and under in most places. So I'm going to presume that somewhere in there is your price point.

Tell us why the 500e doesn't meet your needs and maybe someone can give a better suggestion.

Given no information the best answer to any "what EV to buy?" question is likely a Tesla Model 3 or Model Y. Give some more information and maybe we can figure out why those are not the best choice.

ga2500ev
 
#58 ·
Yeah, I don't think there is anyway to get a new Model 3 for anywhere near what you can get new Bolt for.
I thought there was still some tax rebate for the Chevy? Is it completely phased out already?

If you are looking for a relatively low cost pure EV with decent range and fast charging, I think the Bolt is the only option available.

If your daily drive is 30 to 40+ miles and you want to do that all electric, but you also want to be able to drive long distances without thinking about it, either generation Volt is a great option. New, you can get one for similar money as a Bolt. Used you can get one pretty cheap - close to 500e prices.

Personally, I'm over dealing with ICE. If I needed a car with longer range and was limited to under $30K, I would get a Bolt.
 
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