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Discussion Starter #61
I live with the limitations of my 500e
My 500e doesn't limit ME, since it fully recharges the US average daily drive from a standard wall outlet while I sleep or work, & can double that distance when needed, but of course lots of people can't plug in at home or work....:

I look at Chevy SparkEVs, Kia SoulEVs, and BMW i3 REx as alternative options. Each has the faster charging port though the range is similar to the 500e.
Maybe you didn't list eGolf (avail w. DC option) because of its air-cooled battery, but when I searched about a year ago they didn't seem to have the same degradation issues as other air-cooled EVs. Maybe VW Group knows a lot about air cooling from classic 911/Bug/Bus experience, or possibly it just has a much more heat-tolerant batt chemistry.

Since you listed i3, maybe they're actually okay too, but a few years ago I met a couple of their drivers at public chargers who complained about significant battery degradation. The REx onboard gas charger option is cool though, adding much less maintenance than having a separate all-gas car....:

"L2 is good enough for everyone." It really isn't.
No kidding! What the heck are they thinking?! It takes a minimum of about 1 3/4 HOURS EVERY DAY, just to recharge the average US daily drive! There's no way everyone has time for that! For most people it's only good if they can do it at work or home, where they can recharge a daily drive on L1 anyway!
 

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I like my car. I love to drive it. Metro Atlanta has a 50+ mile radius. So some trips gets outside the range of the 500e. I'd be happy to pay the convenience charge every once in a while to stay in the car and not have to switch. It's a convenience because I can always charge at available L2's while out. But then I have to spend time instead of money.

ga2500ev
 

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No kidding! What the heck are they thinking?! It takes a minimum of about 1 3/4 HOURS EVERY DAY, just to recharge the average US daily drive! There's no way everyone has time for that! For most people it's only good if they can do it at work or home, where they can recharge a daily drive on L1 anyway!
It's not the average drive that's the problem. In all honesty even when driving a 500e, as long as the daily drive is within the range of the car, there's no need for public charging infrastructure at all. I'm specifically referring to the notion that when someone actually needs to charge when away from home, that L2 is the best option.

So I guess I ask the same question here: If one can recharge in 20 minutes, why is it better to instead have to wait 2 hours? Especially if the costs are similar. While there are a few free L2 chargers around, most charge about $1/hr to use. Medium speed DCFC would run about 10 cents a minute ($6/hr). So 30 minutes would be about $3 while 2 hours at the L2 would be $2.

We haven't even started a discussion of those who cannot charge at home at all. Would someone really want to take 2 hours out of every day to tend to charging the car?

So yes, I do keep asking "What are they thinking?" I cannot find a single justification that makes sense for charging slower when the costs are similar. The entire point of public charging is that you are not at home, or at work. There are few places folks want to be for hours outside of those two places. So in that instance, faster charging becomes important.

ga2500ev
 

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Is it nice to have DCFC? Yes it is but if that was super important I would of picked a different car. I didn't even go to a single public charger until like 2 months after I got the car it's been slow charging on L1 and o was perfectly fine even with my 74 mile round trip commute. Again it works for most people but not for everyone, this car has a pretty specific use case.
 

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I will say this though in the near future DC fast-charging is going to have to be a standard infrastructure because can you imagine when electric car become a way more mainstream and there's cars plugged in for hours on end that would be mayhem. There would be cars miles on end backed up trying to charge, I've already seen what busy gas stations around here look like sometimes the cars are lined up to the street to put gas in their cars I can't imagine a charging station.
 

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Is it nice to have DCFC? Yes it is but if that was super important I would of picked a different car. I didn't even go to a single public charger until like 2 months after I got the car it's been slow charging on L1 and o was perfectly fine even with my 74 mile round trip commute. Again it works for most people but not for everyone, this car has a pretty specific use case.
I'm thinking about all use cases for all drivers. As an EV enthusiast, I would like to encourage others to adopt EVs too. The problem with "I would have picked a different car." is that most likely that car would be an ICE. Virtually every conversation with non-EV people goes something like this:

Me: It's a Fiat 500e Electric Car
Them: How far does it go? (my aside to myself: why is distance travelled the most important thing?)
Me: Gets about 80 miles in the summer, 60 or so in the winter.
Them: So what do you do when you run out of power?
Me: Recharge it. There are tons of charging stations around.
Them: How long does that take.
Me: 2-4 hours depending on how empty the battery is. No problem overnight at home.
Them: (emphasis mine) WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE OUT?
Me: (Crickets)

When they ask the last question and you don't have an answer, you've lost them. Now we all know how rare charging out really is. But for the uninitiated it really seems to matter. I remember having a conversation with a worker who worked at a site with a charging station. Her response to the recharge time questions was "It won't work for me. I have a baby." Parsing this response really meant "I can't afford to endanger the safety of my child by being stuck at a charging station for hours."

When we are operating against gas as the competition where 10 minutes is 9 minutes too long, there has to be an answer to the "not at home" recharging question. And it can't be 2-4 hours. Even if it's a 300+ mile EV, it can't be 2,4,6 hours as an answer.

I do appreciate all the L2 sprinked around the landscape. Typically when I need it, though rare, I really need it. And sometimes I really don't want to spend that time just hanging around.

It's scary how emotional the idea of EV car usage is to folks. I see it with my own wife. Nearly 3 years in, the 500e can be at 100% and the trip 10 miles and I inevitably get the question "Do we have enough charge?" I don't even think about such things, but in her question the lack of trust still comes through.

I believe that ICE folks have a comfort level precisely because there is a gas station on every corner. Gas stations they will never use. But just knowing they are there if they run into an issue takes that problem off their plate. We're not there with charging stations yet, neither in terms of access, nor in terms of usability.

I hope everyone here realizes that you have to be a special kind of crazy to have a 500e as your primary vehicle, even if it is a commuter. It's a speciality that will be difficult to get average folks to accept. This is true of EVs in general. Charging station deployment, even if rarely used, would change some of that mindset with the wider populace.

ga2500ev
 

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Well that’s why I still kept my ice car despite I haven’t driven it in 5 weeks. “Just in case” I knew of all the drawbacks of owning a EV especially the low rent ones like ours but in the end I’m still completely satisfied with my purchase and I don’t think I’ll be buying any gassers from here on. Despite its shortcomings I’m ecstatic to own a ev and enjoy driving it around. I’ll be holding onto the Fiat and my Golf until the next generation solid state sodium ion battery comes out that looks promising.
 

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I will say this though in the near future DC fast-charging is going to have to be a standard infrastructure because can you imagine when electric car become a way more mainstream and there's cars plugged in for hours on end that would be mayhem. There would be cars miles on end backed up trying to charge, I've already seen what busy gas stations around here look like sometimes the cars are lined up to the street to put gas in their cars I can't imagine a charging station.
I doubt that future charging infrastructure is going to operate like gas stations. Electricity has a much more flexible delivery structure. First is that charging at home is still going to be the primary delivery mechanism for those who can. Second is that 200+ mile EVs don't generally need to charge each and every day. Third charging stations can be put up in the millions of stores, coffee shops, restaurants, gyms, malls, theaters, workplaces and other places freqent on a regular basis. Pretty much anywhere where folks park for more than 20 minutes or so. Of course ultra high speed travel chargers need to be at every highway exit and truck stop too. Even then there will be holiday travel days where the system will be overloaded.

My fear is that the public local charging infrastructure will be built around L2. Then the types of lines you refer to will come to bear.

ga2500ev
 

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The questions remain can our grid infrastructure handle that many high powered chargers at peak times. Are we invested in the grid to meet the demand when that time comes? And importantly how will electric rates stay the same or jump because demand is so high making a current seemingly low cost power higher in the future. Those are legit questions.
 

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Most families have two vehicles, one for husband and one for wife. If they have teen drivers, then they have a vehicle of their own or share. I can see a world, in perhaps 5+ years, where the scenario will be a gasser for the long distance trips and for towing a boat, camper, etc. The gasser will be the least used in the family, but nonetheless will be essential. The EV will be the most used vehicle due to being the most economical to run and the fun factor.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
High or low power of charger shouldn't make much difference to the grid. Someone should chime in here about efficincy differences, but at any charge speed you're adding the same kWh to the batt to recharge whatever distance you drove.
 

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Most families have two vehicles, one for husband and one for wife. If they have teen drivers, then they have a vehicle of their own or share. I can see a world, in perhaps 5+ years, where the scenario will be a gasser for the long distance trips and for towing a boat, camper, etc. The gasser will be the least used in the family, but nonetheless will be essential. The EV will be the most used vehicle due to being the most economical to run and the fun factor.
Except that it won't work like that. I live in such a household that currently has 5 drivers and 6 cars. Each driver pretty much exclusively uses their personal car for all of their transportation. If one or more of those cars are ICE, then that's what it exclusively used.

I could probably convert 2 maybe 3 more of them to EVs. But I already know from experience with my own car that neither the wife or the kids are going to be willing to sit around waiting hours for a charge away from home. It's a tough spot as all the long range EVs are too expensive to purchase and the low range EVs do have charging requirements outside the house. Lower range EVs with DCFC might thread that needle.

ga2500ev
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Virtually every conversation with non-EV people goes something like this: Me: It's a Fiat 500e Electric Car. Them: How far does it go?......
I've had a lot of those conversations, since I used to work in a retail store with an extension cord to my car which caused a lot of inquiries. After some practice on my part, they usually went one of 2 ways (1 & 2 below). I converted at least 5 people for sure (3 got Fiats, 2 got eGolfs), & maybe a few others I didn't happen to hear from again. Keep in mind I'm in VERY mild VERY high-traffic coastal Southern California:

Me: It's a Fiat 500e Electric Car
Them: How far does it go?
Me: About 100 miles here in LA but that's more than double the average person's daily drive. For road trips I just rent a gas car with some of the money I've saved on oil changes. Either that or just drive it to the airport & fly.
Them: How long does it take to charge?
Me: It's like a cell phone, just plug it in when you get home & it's done by the time you wake up. Do you have an outlet where you park at home or work? (& now the 2 ways it usually goes)

1)
Them: Yes.
Me: Cool. Have you ever driven an electric car?
Them: No.
Me: Okay, let's go. YOU drive, & drive it HARD! If the tires spin a bit when you floor it off the line, just keep your foot down & the computer will take over. (my tires have much more grip than OEM)
Them (driving): Wow! :oops:
Me: Hey I don't mind if you get a ticket, but you know you're going 70? :)
Them: Wow! :D I didn't notice because it's so quiet & smooth. (acceleration)

But here's where this applies to the subject line & ga2500ev comments:

2)
Them: No outlet.
Me: Oh. Then an electric car probably won't work for you until there are more, faster public chargers. :confused:
 

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I hope stuff like this takes off. My only real complaint about my 500e is the range. Its totally enough range for 90% of my driving but it'd sure be nice to be able to do 150-200 miles on a charge. Aftermarket battery upgrades would be awesome.
I believe the new 2021 500e will have 150-200 mile range. I doubt they will have the same resale prices on lease returns that we enjoy.
 

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1) it’s not coming to the US as I understand.

2) if it does It’s Tesla money for one, so why bother when there is better.
 

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2) if it does It’s Tesla money for one, so why bother when there is better.
This is the fundamental problem with the current EV market. Only Bolts with their current $8,500 discounts and I guess the upcoming Mini SE, which is priced at $30k and a full $7,500 tax rebate, are even close to prices where average people are going to be willing to look.

Manufacturers mostly think that EVs are luxury cars. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a 500e purchased (not leased) new. The $34k price tag is insane.

The EV community needs several changes to get buy in from the mass car buying public. This includes lower prices, wider selection, convincing the public that they don't actually need 400 miles of range, and a more prolific and useful public charging infrastructure. All would contribute to an expanded new car market, and expand the used car market too, where a majority of actual car sales occur.

If I had the magic wand, I'd split the US federal tax rebate and put a price cap on it. $5k to the purchaser and $2.5k to the manufacturer. Capped at $27.5k. Minimum EPA range of 150 miles. Must have DCFC with an average charge speed of 50kW from 20%-80% SOC to qualify. That way the manufacturer can make the car for $30k and the purchaser gets it for $22.5k. It would have decent fast charging capability and enough range to get almost anywhere given enough charging stations. These numbers would be for segments up to midsized sedans. For CUV/crossovers bump the numbers up a bit ($33k on price, 200 miles on range, 70 kW average on charge speed).

It's interesting that we're in a world where the primary combat for EVs is actually against Tesla. Since Tesla has 300+ mile range EVs, that charge at 250 kW, and have autopilot, in the $45k and up range, that all other EVs need to be the same. All CUV's don't need to be a Model Y. But unfortunately most folks believe that it does.

ga2500ev
 

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I want to know how the fiat 500e lists at $32,995 and fiat still lost 13k on each sold, kinda makes we wonder how much did car cost to make considering the chassis is amortized with the gassers anyway not specifically for ev. Maybe they had a crappy deals with the battery supplier who knows.
 

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Maybe it’s because every automaker is fighting to make a compelling product Tesla already made. The bar has been set high and everyone’s having a hard time reaching it and still be competitively price. The bolt is the closest thing in range to a base model Tesla and without the tax credit and rebates it’s more expensive then the cheapest Tesla and lacks all the goodies Tesla has, that to me is not compelling product. I’m not sure on the ratio of buyers and leases but I’m betting more people buy Tesla’s then lease, probably because it’s one of the few ev worth buying brand new. Tesla is one of the only brand of ev that depreciation is so little too, every other ev depreciate worse then a luxury German car.
 

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Maybe it’s because every automaker is fighting to make a compelling product Tesla already made. The bar has been set high and everyone’s having a hard time reaching it and still be competitively price. The bolt is the closest thing in range to a base model Tesla and without the tax credit and rebates it’s more expensive then the cheapest Tesla and lacks all the goodies Tesla has, that to me is not compelling product. I’m not sure on the ratio of buyers and leases but I’m betting more people buy Tesla’s then lease, probably because it’s one of the few ev worth buying brand new. Tesla is one of the only brand of ev that depreciation is so little too, every other ev depreciate worse then a luxury German car.
The problem is that Teslas really are not competetively priced in comparison to ordinary ICE. Look at the top ten sellers in the US. Top Three are pick-ups, next 4 are CUVs, and final three are sedans (Camry, Civic, Corolla). In that last class Civics and Corollas of all trims routinely sell under $25k and virtually all Camry's except for the top end XLE V6 models sell under $30k. But Tesla Model 3's start at $40k. They are not even in the same price universe.

Teslas are competitive with German Luxury. But I feel that legacy manfacturers think that buyers are going to fooled into buying a Corolla or Civic at Lexus prices.

I just can't figure out why legacy manufacturers cannot think their way out of this. Look at the top 10 cars. Build EVs like those top ten cars. Sell them in just about the same price ballpark of those top 10 cars. They will then become top 10 cars.
Yet Chevy builds a Bolt, for example, which has none of the characteristics of a top 10 car. Has me shaking my head.

ga2500ev
 

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The problem is currently you cannot because the battery prices have not come down enough. once those prices start to fall a little more then you can start making competitive ev vehicles at gasser prices but if the early beginnings a few years ago it was not possible as you can see even the Fiat 500e was a loser deal. Once cost of batteries are amortized then you can make cheap cars. Tesla chose to market higher end as it’s no way to turn a profit at the prices battery were, but they come down a lot and that’s why they launched cheaper models like the 3 and prob even cheaper ones sometime in the near future with advancement in battery tech. Anyway you dice it they got so far ahead of the ev game everyone scrambling to bring something compelling to market.
Also the model 3 is competitively priced once you factory running costs in the long run . Look how much maintenance and repairs are on conventional gassers and the cost of gas etc it brings real life cost on par with your run of the mill mid grade Camry, except your Camry can’t drive itself.
 
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