Fiat 500 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got a customer parked his 2015 500e in garage last fall. Came out 5 months latter and guess what.
I’ve had to unlock this car twice before. First time needed hv disconnected , second time just needed codes cleared.
I need to drop battery and see if I can revive her. Not seeing anything out there on search engines. I cant afford some 5-10k unit.
Car was imported from Florida. 2015 model 19,500 ish miles. Super clean car can eat off it.
Owner wants it gone. He paid $8000 I believe. Not sure what he wants for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Honestly the owners only recourse may be to research the warranty. In the U.S. it's law that HV batteries for electric cars are warrantied for at least 8 years. 2015 is not 8 years ago. Then again it sounds like the car is an afterthought to the owner so maybe he just doesn't care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I know laws. I’m in Ny. So **** out luck.
Guys my real estate broker, he wrapped car for business. Bought to sit in front of business. He’s got another gaser 500, mr2, Miata, bolt,80indypace car truck,taco, he’s got a lot cars.
I’m a Ase master certified L3 tech.
I’m hoping to start up first all electric/hybrid repair shop in my area.

Tow bill to another state, ouch. I told him to see if dealer will help him out.
I’d rather drop pack and reconditioning it. There’s I guy been making a unit for years but it’s all for charging toy and Honda cells. His unit was affordable $1000-2000 range I believe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
I’d rather drop pack and reconditioning it.
Being an ASE L3 you should know that anything is possible with enough time/money/effort.
Yes, you can drop the pack, and pull the modules, disassemble the modules, and then decide if each individual (of 97) cell is good or bad, then try and "fix" that. It may be that the cells are too low of voltage for the BCM to recognize, or to try and charge. It may be that a single cell is shorted and completely dead. you don't know until you look.
 

·
Registered
2013 FIAT 500e
Joined
·
4,004 Posts
I wonder if even with a good 12V supply there's still a minimum HV voltage required to pre-charge the contactors before they'll close. If not, OBD should work, showing individual cell voltages.

NY is in the U.S., so FCA has to warranty the battery if it has failed..

In the U.S. it's law that HV batteries for electric cars are warrantied for at least 8 years.
I know laws. I’m in Ny. So **** out luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Cell voltages are 1.4-2.7 volts. I didn’t check all of them. Scrolled through 20 or so cell pids. Packs at like 186 volts total. I’d have to look at pics I took to confirm.
Thank the gods for that Alfa obd
Used pack like 8000$ .....so not much of a Mr potato head car.

If I only had more money and time. I wish. Then I wouldn’t be posting on here. Cause you good folks are the service info for 500e.
Manufacturers are constantly trying to find a way to defeat the right to repair act.
 

·
Registered
2013 FIAT 500e
Joined
·
4,004 Posts
I think 1.4v is a death sentence for a Li-ion cell. Fiat's "emergency" threshold is 1.999v.

If you don't want to use the warranty, this may be worth checking out more thoroughly, since supposedly all years are mechanically & electrically identical:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Cell voltages are 1.4-2.7 volts. I didn’t check all of them. Scrolled through 20 or so cell pids. Packs at like 186 volts total. I’d have to look at pics I took to confirm.
Here you can see a datasheet for the larger 94AH cells (ours are 60AH, but i haven't been able to find a datasheet on them) https://files.gwl.eu/inc/_doc/attach/StoItem/7213/Samsung_SDI_94Ah_Datasheet.pdf

from 1.7V you MIGHT be able to recover individual cells by charging them with correct power supplies/voltages. You'll have to completely disassemble the pack, and remove each cell. If the cells swell when charging (or are already swollen, DON"T charge them) then they're definitely bad, dangerously bad. If they don't maintain voltage after charging, then they're bad.

Samsung SDI are NCM (nickel Cobalt Manganese), so use that when deciding what current and voltage to recover the cells at. (see here for a simple rundown, but do more research on battery chemistry and charging)

I'd look for a salvage 500e at auction, (copart.com) buy it, and swap packs, Then try and recover as many cells as possible, maybe even buying modules from ebay to replace cells. It would also be a good time to confirm if/whether the 94AH cells will fit the modules/pack. (*if this were my car, or I were in your situation)
 

·
Registered
2013 FIAT 500e
Joined
·
4,004 Posts
The VERY knowledgeable-seeming founder of PushEVs.com says our older, smaller Samsung SDIs are a combination of NCM & LMO. That may make a difference in this extreme case, since even though both chemistries have operating voltages of 3.0-4.2V/cell, nominal voltage of NCM is 3.6-3.7 & LMO is 3.7-3.8 (according to batteryuniversity.com)
 

·
Registered
2013 FIAT 500e
Joined
·
4,004 Posts
I just checked Iron's 94Ah spec sheet link above & it says operating range is 2.7-4.15V, & nominal 3.68V but I believe this newer, bigger cell is straight NCM.

Wow! Lab tests calendar life at 100%SOC 26 years! (with 70% capacity retained).
Double-wow: Cycled all the way from 4.15 to 2.7V (Fiat is self-limited to only 4.1 through 3.1) at 77 degrees Fahrenheit they retain 70% capacity (that's 70 city miles for me) after 5,200 cycles. That's 442,000 city miles!

Forum members' real-world Fiat capacity tests aren't quite as great, with about 2.3% loss per 10,000 miles (70% capacity after 130.4k mi)

Somebody please check my math on those miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Got a customer parked his 2015 500e in garage last fall. Came out 5 months latter and guess what.
I’ve had to unlock this car twice before. First time needed hv disconnected , second time just needed codes cleared.
I need to drop battery and see if I can revive her. Not seeing anything out there on search engines. I cant afford some 5-10k unit.
Car was imported from Florida. 2015 model 19,500 ish miles. Super clean car can eat off it.
Owner wants it gone. He paid $8000 I believe. Not sure what he wants for it.
Assuming the 12V battery is okay, do these cars refuse a charge if the HV battery voltage is too low?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Assuming the 12V battery is okay, do these cars refuse a charge if the HV battery voltage is too low?
Yes,
The BCM (battery control module) cannot safely charge cells that are outside their commanded range. They are programmed and setup for normal charging, NOT for rescuing a battery from too deep a discharge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Great info folks. I’m going keep looking for a battery to replace one in car. If I can find good one that doesn’t have a core I can part out old pack for salvageable parts.
As for getting a salvage car off Copart. Good luck. I’ve been trying to scoop up a 018 up leaf for 6 months. Totally destroyed ones are going for a few thousand less then used dealer prices. I’m talking like 12,000$ plus for a crashed car. Add on a broker fee, auction fees, transportation. It’s not affordable to buy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Yes,
The BCM (battery control module) cannot safely charge cells that are outside their commanded range. They are programmed and setup for normal charging, NOT for rescuing a battery from too deep a discharge.
Do you have direct access to the HV pack at the big disconnect or anywhere?
If so, what about using a high voltage DC supply to pull the battery pack up to a voltage where the car could take over? Clearly, you'd have to limit current as I assume the battery pack cooling system won't be working with the HV battery disconnected. Obviously a big roll of the dice.
I would expect a reasonable recovery, depending upon how low the voltage got, or a big fireball instead of a car in your driveway. I wonder if the local fire department would be willing to come out and watch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Do you have direct access to the HV pack at the big disconnect or anywhere?
If so, what about using a high voltage DC supply to pull the battery pack up to a voltage where the car could take over? Clearly, you'd have to limit current as I assume the battery pack cooling system won't be working with the HV battery disconnected. Obviously a big roll of the dice.
I would expect a reasonable recovery, depending upon how low the voltage got, or a big fireball instead of a car in your driveway. I wonder if the local fire department would be willing to come out and watch.
Sorry, wasn't thru. You'd want the fire department for both the fire and the very possible death by electric shock. Also, if you've never heard the term Arc-Flash, you shouldn't even be thinking about trying this much less actually trying it as the voltage and power levels available are clearly in the Arc-Flash levels. DC Arc-Flash is worse than AC Arc-Flash because it never goes to zero voltage until the power is exhausted. Highly trained professionals working with high voltage still die pretty often from electrocution and Arc-Flashes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Do you have direct access to the HV pack at the big disconnect or anywhere?
If so, what about using a high voltage DC supply to pull the battery pack up to a voltage where the car could take over?
The contactors are INSIDE the pack, and they kill all HV outside the pack when open. And won't close unless the controller is happy with the situation (so, no direct access)


BUT even if you did have direct access, you definitely do NOT want to charge an entire pack blindly with a HV supply. The cells are definitely unbalanced, and definitely will not charge consistently or evenly. You are much more likely to explode a pack trying this than you are to recover even one of the 97 cells in the pack.


I haven’t found any 500e up for auction yet.
Copart auction here

Right now there are 5 for auction. 2 of which I think would be good for battery replacements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Sorry, wasn't thru. You'd want the fire department for both the fire and the very possible death by electric shock. Also, if you've never heard the term Arc-Flash, you shouldn't even be thinking about trying this much less actually trying it as the voltage and power levels available are clearly in the Arc-Flash levels. DC Arc-Flash is worse than AC Arc-Flash because it never goes to zero voltage until the power is exhausted. Highly trained professionals working with high voltage still die pretty often from electrocution and Arc-Flashes.
Still more because now I feel a little responsible. If not done properly, the air around you can nearly instantly become hotter than the surface of the sun and you could be exposed to molten metals traveling at up to 700 MPH. It's not worth it, even for a cute Fiat 500e. Here's a test dummy demonstrating Arc-Flash:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Those wrecks are all on west coast I’m in Syracuse Ny. That’s like a 2500$ shipping bill besides car. But I’ll watch those auctions see what really going for in end.
Customers going drop car off at my house. I’ll throw up on lift get some pics and videos. I could do I remove: replace video on HV battery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Yes,
The BCM (battery control module) cannot safely charge cells that are outside their commanded range. They are programmed and setup for normal charging, NOT for rescuing a battery from too deep a discharge.
Is there a manual way to trick the BCM into thinking the voltage is higher, or even sending a 12v signal to the contactor in the battery disconnect unit. I really don’t want to drop my hv battery pack (drop rear axial, bleed brakes, disconnect coolant, and rig up several chargers to charge the modules).
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top