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The Ugly Economics of Green Vehicles

28K views 150 replies 25 participants last post by  deja vous  
#1 ·
#3 ·
Interesting read. Like flat screen TV's, years ago only the wealthy could buy. EV range will increase, cost will drop. Hybrids are still the best buy for going green. I been very fortunate to be in that income level. Just have no interest, in a EV. I see Tesla's all over, where I live. Rich state, and county. I like cheap small cars. Would rather spend my cash on travel, or home improvement. A replacement Nissan Leaf battery, is $5K. How much gas can one buy for that?
 
#5 ·
I was watching Charlie Rose several years ago and he had 3 of Oil Company CEO's on. One of the more interesting points the Shell CEO made was the most important thing the government can do is set standards for new technology it wants to encourage. The example he gave was Hydrogen fuel stations. At the time there where no Federal or State building/safety standards like there are for Gasoline stations, so cities and towns did not want to approve Hydrogen fuel stations since of the fear of legal action if an accident happened. They can't hide behind "Our codes met/exceed state and federal standards" in court so did not want to take the risk. I have no idea if there are standards now.

If California, Oregon and Washington state want to push Hydrogen they have to make sure that there is enough stations on I5, I80, I70, I84,I90 and 101 so people will not run out of fuel. Which means one station about every 50 miles.


Not sure today but years ago automakers needed to stay with specific engine technology for 10 years in order to recovery R&D and production costs. Assuming that is still true then the having increasing Fuel standards that tracked that model makes sense. 20 years ago who would thought they would 1.0L liter engines with over 90 HP (Opel) http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/07.../07/opel-begins-production-on-new-1-0-liter-three-cylinder-turbocharged-engine/
 
#7 ·
It doesnt take an economics degree to realize that;

1) High incentives cannot be maintained

2) Electric only cars are "add on" vehicles and not the only car a family owns since they are entirely impracticable at least some of the time...and a family cant have a car it can use only sometimes.

3) Electric only vehicles are a negative equity choice in almost all cases...even after incentives
 
#8 · (Edited)
It doesnt take an economics degree to realize that;

1) High incentives cannot be maintained TRUE

2) Electric only cars are "add on" vehicles and not the only car a family owns since they are entirely impracticable at least some of the time...and a family cant have a car it can use only sometimes. TRUE

3) Electric only vehicles are a negative equity choice in almost all cases...even after incentives
In my case, not true. My out of pocket, after incentives, (I purchasd) was about $21000. I get my electricity for free at work, so I did not need to buy a L2 charger. I save about $200/month in gas that I no longer have to buy. I save quite a bit on routine maintenance I don't need to do. Over the projected expected life of the vehicle (7 year warranty on battery pack) I will have saved around $17000 in fuel costs. For me, the math DOES add up. Oh, one other thing, access to the HOV lanes saves me about 1 hour a day in drive time, and that has huge value to me in quality of life.
 
#11 ·
The lease of an EV has been cash positive for me, as I have explained a couple of times. I will say that there ARE people who an EV as their only car is ok, retired people who never go more than 40 miles or so from home.

Yeah, I do realize that I'm not paying my share for road taxes because I am not buying gas and that is probably not right. I don't feel bad because since I have 2 other expensive cars that I pay huge amounts of registration money which is almost all tax, I'm definitely pulling my part. (People should pay a flat rate for vehicle registration, or better yet, pay by a combination of their mileage driven and the weight of their vehicle)

Greg
 
#66 ·
I don't feel bad because since I have 2 other expensive cars that I pay huge amounts of registration money which is almost all tax, I'm definitely pulling my part. (People should pay a flat rate for vehicle registration, or better yet, pay by a combination of their mileage driven and the weight of their vehicle)

Greg
shoot! I agree. I just paid a $600+ registration fee yesterday on a car which also gets me 17mpg on average. So ya. I paid enough tax to cover 5 EVs to use the roads.


Ya. Pay by miles and weight!
 
#13 ·
We do not have EV lanes in California we have HOV lanes (car pool), which are very highly used by all vehicle types. They just added a 2nd one on 101 in Santa Clara, (2 HOV during commute hours plus 3 solo lanes, during non commute hours 5 solo lanes going north) County because the first HOV lane was packed as the solo lanes. The EV's owners get use to the HOV lanes as a solo driver as do motorcycles. The EV permit is good for that specific car until 2019.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/paffairs/faq/faq79.htm
 
#16 ·
screw it all

screw the environment
Screw the air quality
screw the Gulf (Deepwater Horizon anyone?)
screw the wars we fight over oil
screw the soldiers who die in those wars
screw the money we spend on those wars (we socialize the losses)
screw the fact that the consumer never pays the actula price of gas whe you factor in the costs of protecting the oil shipments and the ugly, ugly people we have to give money to
screw the contributions the big oil companies make to the politiians
screw the HOV lanes
screw everyone who stands in MY way
that pollution and global warming stuff is all a big hoax anyway, right?

there. I've said it for you.
But the nattering nabobs of negativity will continue to troll this forum dedicated to an electric car in order to smear it and take out thei frustrations on the rest of us.


There are more ways to generate electricity than gasoline.
And there are no emissions.
 
#24 ·
screw the environment
Screw the air quality
screw the Gulf (Deepwater Horizon anyone?)
screw the wars we fight over oil
screw the soldiers who die in those wars
screw the money we spend on those wars (we socialize the losses)
screw the fact that the consumer never pays the actula price of gas whe you factor in the costs of protecting the oil shipments and the ugly, ugly people we have to give money to
screw the contributions the big oil companies make to the politiians
screw the HOV lanes
screw everyone who stands in MY way
that pollution and global warming stuff is all a big hoax anyway, right?

there. I've said it for you.
But the nattering nabobs of negativity will continue to troll this forum dedicated to an electric car in order to smear it and take out thei frustrations on the rest of us.


There are more ways to generate electricity than gasoline.
And there are no emissions.
Very well said!

I am so fed up with naysayers and whiners against EVs. They are for the most part completely ignorant of what the true economics are and the last people they ask are the actual owners...lol. There is so much ignorance about costs, usage, charging, range, maintenance, etc that it's truly astounding.

There is a real campaign out there against change from the status quo. Using fossil fuels ties into so many other industries that make huge amounts of money from the use of fuel. The biggest and most wasteful of them all is the military and weapons industries. These are juggernauts where anyone who stands in their way will be blasted and destroyed. There is so much money to be made from harvest fuels from other countries and creating conflicts that this issue alone will cause huge problems and ramifications towards the growth of alternative fuels and transportation industries.

The environmental issue is an independent one but us usually used as an excuse by naysayers to belittle and downplay EV and alternative fuel transformation.

Sadly the consensus now is not if but how bad it's going to be.
 
#17 ·
I think electric cars shouldn't pay a road tax. It's a way of promoting electric cars (for now).

Gas cars should pay taxes based on gas used. More gas, more tax. Drive little, pay little.

Paying by by weight is interesting. I pay $275 a year for a 1988 Camry worth around a thousand in the state of Hawaii; was about $40 in Arizona. Apparently a new Fiat 500 would have been cheaper to register.
 
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#18 ·
The Federal Gas Tax is 18 cents a gallon, and it supplies the Highway Trust Fund, so the more you consume the more you pay. The Fund is now bankrupt because cars get double the mileage they did just 15 years ago, and mileage driven in the USA has been trending downwards for years. Most localities have their own tax added.


There is this “holier than thou” atttitude some of the EV drivers have. Oil imports are at a two decade low, every year brings another 15 million fuel efficient vehicles on the road, ostensibly replacing 15 million clunkers that are far more thirsty and dirtier. Emissions have been cut by 99% since the Clean Air Act was passed.


We've already won this battle, for the most part. If I take the logic of some of the people here, EVERYONE should get a $30,000 kickback on their car, the OEMs should lose $14,000 on each one, and see if this works.


Get over it. No matter how noble your intentions it DOESN'T work.


  • "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
    - Upton Sinclair
 
#19 ·
Maybe he's still upset over the "500e is better than an Abarth" thread.

I just love it when people from another state tell us all about California...

I think the thing being missed here is that electricity can be made from something other than fossil fuels, and the first steps, while not perfect, are going in the right direction.

And the rest of you that complain that it's wrongly subsidized money, please vote for a flat income tax, so I don't have to continue to subsidize you!!

Greg
 
#21 ·
A lot of electricity comes from coal and nuclear power, so the e-cars are not a panacea. You keep running away from the basic issue here, and that is everyone is subsidizing the purchase of these things. If I take this policy to it's logical conclusion, ALL manufacturers should lose money, and all taxpayers should pay each other to purchase cars.


It doesn't make any economic sense, and that is precisely what I said two weeks before this article on the economics of these cars came out. At the end of the day, the tech has to stand on it's own, otherwise you're advocating the economic dystopia I outlined above.


And please don't conflate the other taxes you pay as some sort of penance for your sins here. A “flat tax” is not “fairer” than a progressive tax because capitalism does not reward the many as it does the few, and that has never been more true than today.


But that is another issue for another place. And believe me, buddy: you're not subsidizing me with so much as a brass farthing.
 
#29 ·
Ahhhh. You don't know the difference between a Prius and an Accord hybrid. Just as you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground. Oh, and FYI...I paid $38,000 for my 500e. That was just the purchase. I gladly would have paid more. And I would buy the car again.

Can you do us a favor and disappear? You don't contribute to the discussion about the car. All we get from you is a vat of battery acid every day.

As long as you sink the place up there is no use for any of us to be here.
 
#30 ·
mp3guy... as long as I pay twice the taxes for the same government services as you do, I AM subsidizing you... you are hypocritical to piss and moan about the EV being subsidized, but happy to be subsidized in other ways... that is hypocritical.

Also, apparently your brain is plugged up when you cannot even understand that the idea is to get away from fossil fuels... and use renewable energy.

Why don't you just go away, I see you will never live the Abarth vs. 500e article. Go somewhere where people think you are smart and witty and contribute, because it sure is not happening here.

Greg
 
#32 · (Edited)
Excuse me, but your personal insults are a deflection, and this isn't about the FIRST article, it's about the SECOND, which seems I was quite prescient in bringing up the economics of this issue BEFORE it came out. Maybe adolescents can't “live down” a review of a car, but that has never been my problem in 44 years as an enthusiast.


You pay taxes? So do I. Lots of them. If you think you're paying twice what I pay, get off your high horse. I doubt it.
 
#48 ·
Our society and economy is shaped by the intervention of government. The price of fossil fuels was held artificially low for many years. Uncle Sam built the interstate highways while killing the extensive rail network, which was mostly maintained by private rail companies. We are as much a pure capitalist economy as China is a pure communist economy. So get over it. If the government wants to spend public money to clean up the air and people who have money to be able to save money get in on it, that's life in the big wide world.
 
#51 ·
Oil was cheap because we dictated the price to the Arabs at $4 a barrel for decades. Then the '73 war came, and OPEC set the price.


Today, OPEC is essentially dead, the US has added the equivalent production of Iran to it's own, and gasoline exports are the U.S.A's #1 export product, which is why the Kochs want Keystone built so they can cash out of their oil sands holdings.


And gasoline is heading to lower levels as we speak, so the cost equation gets worse for the subsidized EVs.


Again, I DO believe these cars will get more viable as time goes on. The conceit is that these subsidies are God's work.
 
#53 ·
Being an engineer by profession, I was a big skeptic when it came to the economic feasibility of BEV's, although I watched the develoments with interest. If I were not for the incentives, I likely would have waited for the technology to mature further before buying. I took a risk in being an early adopter hoping I would no have buyers remorse. After a year with the 500e, I am totally happy with my decision. It is significantly cheaper to operate that an ICE, probably in part because I get free charging at work. To me the biggest advantage to an electric propulsion vehicle is the inherent ease in which it can recapture wasted energy thru regenerative braking. I am convinced that electric motor propulsion is the future, even if there is a ICE range extender. Sometimes, subsidizing a new technology is the best way to give it the necessary momentum to allow it to accepted by the masses. After all, isn't that the basic role of government, to force sometimes unpopular choices onto society for the greater good?
 
#59 ·
Believe it or not I am the type that insists a person drive exactly what they would like, I just hope that in their choice they do not become delusional. At my age and having grown up loving performance v8 machines I have never complained about about my petrol bill as this would make me a dolt yes. If a person wants to pick up a ev great, same goes for a hybrid but please remember we do not all want to drive the same brand/make/propulsion systems etc. I really do not see how what your neighbour down the street drives is any of our concern. Not that I spend 500.00 a month on gas or even 80% of that but if I had to spend 500.00 per I would be ok with it.
 
#63 ·
I'll make this point here to just about shut anyone that cries about the "unfair subsidy" that EV owners get:

$9.00 premium for petrol in Continental Europe on my last business trip, ironically to discuss Hydrogen production with Linde in Germany

FACT: The rest of the world pays at least twice as much for a gallon of gas than we do here in the good ole' US of A. There is at least $2.00 in government subsidies for every gallon of gas.

In that light, I don't feel the least bit guilty about my $7500 from the feds or my $2500 from the state. We, as a nation, have been subsidizing irresponsible automotive development for long enough with inexpensive fuel.
 
#70 ·
I don't know what thought process anyone can use to justify your reasoning. Gasoline has been taxed to death in Europe for most of the Post WWII period, and we are laughed at by Europeans when they here some yobbo complaining about our $3.50 a gallon prices.


This is why half of BMWs and Mercedes' sales on the Continent are diesel equipped. I don't think even 5% of US versions are, and it won't be because the gas is so cheap.


Let me point out one simple fact: the lack of more onerous taxes does not equate to a “subsidy.”

BTW, this is not about "guilt."